In this dialogue with Rebecca of Former Catholics for Christ, Frank Jerry exposes the unsustainable doctrine of sola scriptura. Rebecca’s comments are in purple. Frank’s comments are blue.
I am Roman Catholic and I was wondering if I could ask you a question. Did the Apostles teach “Sola Scriptura” as they preached the Gospel?
Let me ask you a question. Are you saying that God’s word is NOT the final authority????
Is that a yes or a no? I thought I asked a simple question.
Oh it is definitely a “YES”!!! And your answer?
1) How did they teach Sola Scriptura if John hadn’t even written the book of Revelations yet? 2) Or are you saying that the book of Revelations isn’t needed?
Now to answer your question: “Let me ask you a question. Are you saying that God’s word is NOT the final authority????” Sure it’s the final authority…when interpreted correctly. It IS the Word of God…but in the hands of the ignorant and unstable, it can be twisted to mean just about anything. My question for you is this: Since the Bible can’t speak or reprimand you when you incorrectly interpret it, can you know with certainty that what you believe is true. (YES or NO?) If yes, how so?
Because, the gospel they preached was already written in the Old Testament, and thus the reason why Paul said:
Ro 1:1-2 “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures)….”
And thus the reason why the Bereans could test the words of the apostles to see if what they said was true. And thus the reason why you should read the scriptures for yourself…see what else the RCC is hiding from you.
So your answer is that “Sola Scriptura” means that the Old Testament alone is sufficient? Are you saying that we don’t need the New Testament…let alone the Book of Revelations?
Also…you didn’t answer my second question: Since the Bible can’t speak or reprimand you when you incorrectly interpret it, can you know with certainty that what you believe is true. (YES or NO?) If yes, how so?
This is why you should read for yourself. The gospel that Paul preached was already written in the Old Testament. The apostles did not come preaching another gospel, but the very gospel that was foretold long before. No one can add to it or take from it. The New Testament could only bear witness to what was already written.
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he [Jesus] expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Try not to twist what I say sir, it is unbecoming of you. RCC does not come with the same message that the Old Testament prophesied, whereas the writers of the New Testament do. Therefore, I believe the apostles and not the RCC. Are you yet without understanding? Do you yet doubt that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world? Time to start reading your Bible and find out what RCC is hiding from you.
I think you better read over my question and honestly assess if you answered it. If not, you are only deceiving yourself. Calm down…why have you been so bitter towards me from the very beginning of our correspondence? I merely contacted you to ask a few questions and from the outset, you have treated me like a personal enemy. You never did answer my second question. A coincidence??…
And you, my friend, NEVER ANSWERED MY FIRST QUESTION. I’m a very busy person and get a lot of lazy people who have no idea what the Bible says, yet want everyone else to do their studying for them. I have to ask what RCC believes because it is NOT FOUND in the Bible. On the other hand, everything I believe can be found in the scriptures. Go read the Bible and find out what I believe!!!!
Thank you for NOT answering my question again. What are you afraid of? I answered your questions. I said that the bible was the Word of God and hence authoritative. I DO read the Bible but just quoting from the bible out of context doesn’t prove anything. Satan did the exact same thing in the desert with Jesus. Thank you for your hospitality. Again, I ask you to re-read my questions and your responses, or lack of response. Can you tell me, honestly, that you didn’t evade any of my questions?
You NEVER answered my first question Frank…so be frank and answer it! Are you saying that God’s word is not the final authority? And I have tons more questions for you when you are done with that one. 🙂
I answered your question. I will cut and paste it from my other email to you in case you missed it.
“Let me ask you a question. Are you saying that God’s word is NOT the final authority????”
“Sure it’s the final authority…when interpreted correctly. It IS the Word of God…but in the hands of the ignorant and unstable, it can be twisted to mean just about anything. My question for you is this: ‘Since the Bible can’t speak or reprimand you when you incorrectly interpret it, can you know with certainty that what you believe is true. (YES or NO?) If yes, how so?'”
I think my answer was pretty clear. Now how about answering the rest of my questions. I’m not afraid of truth Becky. I like to test my beliefs and my questions towards you are meant only in that regard. If you get offended by some of them, which isn’t their purpose, maybe that is a sign that you should test your beliefs and not accept the word of men only.
By what authority did the Bereans search the scriptures to test the words of the apostles to see if what they said was true?
You still didn’t answer my question:
Since the Bible can’t speak or reprimand you when you incorrectly interpret it, can you know with certainty that what you believe is true. c (YES or NO?) If yes, how so?
It’s a simple yes or no answer. You claim to live your life by Scripture alone…Scripture says to let your “yes” be “yes” and your “no” be “no”…anything else is from Satan. Don’t be afraid of truth. If what you believe in is true, it should stand the test.
You say the Bible cannot reprimand you when you incorrectly interpret it???? Wrong sir, it most certainly does!!!! The word is “living” not dead. It speaks and will not be quiet. How is it sir that you do not hear it??? Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice”. If you don’t hear His voice, then you are not His sheep. Now again sir, how is it that the Bereans could question the authority of the apostles by the word? Please answer! By what authority did they do this? And why were they commended as “more noble” for their actions?
Tell me…how does the bible reprimand you when you misinterpret it? Let me tell of an experience of mine which recently happened. I registered for a college credit course to be taken online. Each student was required to purchase a book for the class and an instructor was assigned to “oversee” everything. Well, unfortunately, things didn’t go as planned. It turned out to be the instructor’s first try at teaching, and his lack of experience and enthusiasm showed. We were unable to contact him most of the semester. My fellow classmates and I were like lost sheep. None of us knew if we were doing our assignments correctly. Even though we all had the same book to learn by, we were all approaching the projects differently and none of us knew which approach was right. I made a pledge from then on NEVER to take another online course. What a difference a traditional classroom environment is compared to trying to learn by yourself from a book. In a traditional classroom, if I make a mistake, the teacher corrects me and explains to me what I did wrong. I don’t have to rely solely on my own judgments and opinions but actually have an objective, living, breathing standard to use as my base. The Word is living and not dead. That Word became flesh and is Jesus Christ. Coming from a Protestant, your outlook on the bible surprises me. You speak of the bible as if it was a relic so to speak in Catholic terms. You worship a book…paper and ink, we worship the Word of God. It is the Spirit that gives life to the paper and ink used to create the Bible. How do you know that it is the same Holy Spirit of God that guides you in understanding it and not an evil spirit. That is the point here. Not if we are allowed or have the authority to read the bible. We certainly do. But the question is…how do we know that we are interpreting it correctly? You don’t and you really never answered my question pertaining to this. Why should I believe you and not one of the other 30,000+ Protestant sects out there all claiming to go by the Bible alone as you do? There are MANY false prophets in the world leading the sheep astray and their are many false voices. How can we know the one true voice? All these Protestant sects believe in sola scriptura and all have the same bible…but all hear different voices. As far as the Bereans are concerned, they were commended as more noble than who? Read the context. The Thessolonians. And why is that? Because the Bereans were open-minded while some of the Thessolonians interpreted and approached the Scriptures as Protestants do today, with their presuppositions and hardness of mind and heart. They wouldn’t accept Paul or his word because they felt that it contradicted their notion of what the Old Testament said. Sound familiar?
To be totally honest frank, you seem to be a man who does not know the Holy Spirit. Do you suppose the Lord is unable to teach His people. You have a form a religion, but you deny the power thereof. Jesus is my Teacher, my Master, my Father. I have been born-again, so the Spirit of Christ dwells in me. If any man does not have the Spirit of Christ, then he is none of His. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice”. Jesus, being the Master and Teacher, never leaves me nor forsakes me, the Bible tells me so. The Bible also tells me that I need no man teach me, that the Spirit that dwells in me will teach me and guide me into all truth and will teach me to abide in Christ. Even Paul, after warning of wolves within the midst, commended us to God and His word, not to men!!!!
You did not answer my question. By what authority did the Bereans test the words of the apostles by the word of God?
I always find it interesting and so predictable that when a person such as yourself fails to have a reasonable or logical argument to fall back on, they rely on two specific fallacies instead. The fallacy of “special pleading” is committed when a person claims privileged knowledge available only to that person alone. Anyone who disagrees with that person is lost in some way. The other fallacy you seem to regularly commit is known by it’s Latin tag, argumentum ad hominem. You seem to like attacking me personally while ignoring my arguments. The funny thing about it is that Protestantism boasts of “freedom” and the “right” of every person to read and interpret the bible for themselves. But as soon as someone disagrees with you, then they must not be truly “born again”. What REALLY is your authority Becky? Is it the bible as you say or is it really YOURSELF?!
By what authority did the Bereans test the words of the apostles by the word of God? Becky, I answered this question before. You are again approaching this text with your false presuppositions and therefore incorrectly understanding it. A non biased reading of the text would show that the Bereans were called noble not solely because they searched and reasoned from the Scriptures. Both the Bereans and the Thessolonians did that. They were called noble first and foremost because they were open-minded and accepted Paul’s interpretation of these very same Scriptures. Paul was proclaiming orally the Word of God and announcing that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the OT. This was a new revelation for the Jews and contradicted many of their ideas of what the Messiah would be like. They were looking for a conquering king rather than one that was to suffer and die. Many of the Bereans accepted Paul’s words unlike the majority of the Thessolonians who instead were more like modern-day “Bible-Christians” being close-minded and unwilling to accept Paul’s apostolic authority over their own fallible judgment and opinions. So this text actually disproves “sola scriptura” and emphasizes Paul’s apostolic authority.
The Bible also tells me that I need no man teach me, that the Spirit that dwells in me will teach me and guide me into all truth and will teach me to abide in Christ.
I’m not sure what bible you are reading Becky, but from your very own King James bible, I must reject your interpretation. It seems that God’s plan for his church includes teachers which you deny.
1Cor:12:28: And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
2Tm:1:11: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Tm:2:2: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Mt:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Now Becky, let’s take your argument one step back. Since you wished to make the argument that because the Bereans studied the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true therefore the Scriptures are the final authority, then answer me this. As you know, the Bible didn’t just fall from heaven nicely bound in one book. Someone or something had to discern what was and what wasn’t inspired and the word of God. It happened to be the Catholic Church but that is besides the point now and not needed for my argument. The early church read from many writings besides the ones included in your bible today. The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didichae were two, just to name a couple. My question to you is by what standard or authority was the canon of Scripture decided upon? Also…from previous emails which you have never answered: Tell me…how does the bible reprimand you when you misinterpret it?
Sir…it is not “privileged knowledge available only to that person alone”. The word of God is for all. The Spirit of God is not just for me, but unto all who will receive Him. I don’t understand why it is you feel that God wouldn’t bother with you. Don’t you know that the Spirit of God wants to dwell in you and sup with you? He desires that you should sit down and eat of His word and partake in His good things. It is not a “fallacy” for a Christian to believe that God loves us and has made His home in us. It is arrogant for any man to think that he alone has a special line to God’s truths and without them one cannot be saved. Paul said “Let no man glory in men. For all things are yours”. (1Co 3:21)
“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.” (1Co 4:6-8)
I am sorry, I didn’t mean to attack you personally. It was only an observation. You don’t seem to understand the working of the Holy Spirit in a saved man’s life. This is the result of not studying God’s word. Please don’t take offense. I sincerely care for your soul. I have nothing to gain by your reading the Bible, but you do. If you never write me again, heed the command to “study” the word of God.
You still didn’t answer my questions. As for the rest of what you wrote, my point was that whenever I ask a “Bible Christian” serious questions that they have problems answering, they always end up falling back on the same reply… “Well, I’m born again and you’re not, that is why you can’t understand.” This isn’t an answer at all. It is a cop-out.
The scriptures say “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
That is why Christians always say the same thing…you must be born-again or you cannot see. We are only quoting our Lord Jesus Christ. You will find that all Christians will use the word of God to exhort, rebuke and reprove. It is our life! And since we are judged by the word, best to know what it says!!
I read the Bible every day. I accept Jesus Christ EVERY day and receive Him, body, blood, soul and divinity at every Mass. What more can a person ask for. Why should I believe your interpretation of the bible over and above anyone else’s? Are you claiming to be infallible? You claim to be “born-again”. So what? Many people claim the same, but these same people would tell YOU that your interpretation of the bible in many ways is wrong, and these same people also believe in sola scriptura. So who should I believe? You have failed to give any knowledgeable reason for what you believe. As I said before, special pleading and circular arguments just don’t convince me. I think this is a prime example of it: If you had been born-again, you would have known that. In other words, it’s not the bible that is the final authority, but Rebecca. I read the same bible as you do, but unless I agree with your interpretation, I must not be born again. Think about it Rebecca. Don’t let your feelings and emotions overtake your reason. We are to worship in Spirit and TRUTH. What you are presenting isn’t truth.
1Pet3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.
I have to say, it is special, but it is available to those who receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour and trust in His finished work. It’s not hard for those who can see to see those who are blind. When a man questions the power of the Holy Ghost and His word, that man will receive nothing. Don’t be angry that God would sup with a grandmother, but rather, open up the door and sup with the Lord Jesus for yourself. Then you will realize just how special His word is!
You want to know how the Lord teaches those who have false interpretation? It’s easy….we who believe God study His word knowing by His Spirit that it is our life. As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby. As we study, the false interpretations we hold are put up against the light of the word. (“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.”) The water of the washing of the word cleanses us from wrong interpretation. That is why I, as a Catholic, could read the word and come to the truth. I could see that the interpretations RCC was giving were corrupt and I was following that corruption. The water of the washing of the word cleansed my false interpretation and gave me the true. If you had been born-again, you would have known that. You would have known that the Lord chasteneth those that are His. He is a good Father and knows how to care for His own. I belong to Him and He is mine. His Spirit and His word are my joy. No religious system could give to me what He has.
You’ve read all the articles on the eucharist? It is not my interpretation, but rather a very simple laying out of all the scriptures pertaining to sacrificing…no where does it permit a man to eat the Lamb before it is slain, “with the blood” still in it. Unless you can prove by scripture that a man can eat a live sacrifice before it is sacrificed, I see no reason to believe RCC when she added to Jesus’ words.
Becky, That’s exactly what interpretation means…you lay out one or more verses out of context from the bible and then you apply a meaning to them…or as in many cases, you first have a belief and then you try and “validate” it by finding verses that seemingly agree with it and taking them out of context. In this case, I can’t seem to find the articles you are referring to on your website with the list of scripture verses. If you can send me the URL, I will read them. I’m not sure what you mean by Catholics eating the Lamb before it is slain. Christ was slain once and for all on Calvary. Maybe if you clarify what you mean, I will be able to explain your misunderstanding.
Let’s lay out a few scriptures side by side and see if you are interpreting the eating of Jesus before His blood was poured out on Calvary correctly. Does that sound like a good place to start? Let’s see if we can find any scripture that says we are to eat the bread “with blood”. You start…
I’m still not completely sure what you are referring to, but if you wish to discuss the Eucharist, that sounds fine to me. What do you mean by “eating the bread with blood”? Jesus said that unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood, we have no life within us. What is your disagreement or problem? Can you clarify it a little better? I would like to point out that I’m not satisfied with your previous answers to my earlier emails…but no use repeating the same thing over and over.
What I’m asking is simple. Jesus said that the bread He held up was His “flesh”. He then held up the cup and said it was the “blood…THAT WILL BE SHED”. At no time did the Lord Jesus claim that the bread He was giving contained the blood in it. He separated the two elements signifying on how He should die. Why would you partake in the eating of a pre-crucified “Lamb”? RCC says that you are eating the “whole and entire Christ”. No Jew partook of a live sacrifice, of whom the pattern of things are found. So why do you?
Are you talking about the Catholic belief that when we receive only the Host, we are receiving Christ entirely? This is clearly taught in Scripture.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
Notice that Scripture says that whoever eats OR drinks unworthily is guilty of sinning against BOTH the body AND blood of the Lord. This is clear enough for my understanding.
Every account of the last supper, as spoken by our Lord Jesus, separated the two elements. The King James Bible stays true to the interpretation and it is obvious that RCC has altered that verse to suit themselves. In order to interpret the scriptures, let’s take a look at what Jesus says, and keep in mind the word “shed”, because the blood in the cup was the shed blood, not the body with the life still in it:
Mt 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mr 14:22-24 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Lu 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, AND drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, AND drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, AND drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, AND drink of that cup.
The word of God is consistent, and in harmony. It also commands us that we should not eat flesh “with the life”. Let’s look at those verses as well.
Ge 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Le 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood:
Le 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
De 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.
Eze 33:25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
After you read all this, please feel free to comment, then we will go to the feast of the Passover where the pattern was first set up and see if RCC follows the pattern. If they do not, they are doctrinally in error and have strayed from the word of God.
Sorry Rebecca, not so fast. What is obvious is that the King James Bible has deliberately mistranslated this verse and that means you still have to deal with it before we move on. I checked out Strong’s KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon to see how the Greek read and here is what I found out:
1Cor11:27: Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, AND drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body (2) AND blood of the Lord.
(1)The word translated as AND should be OR: original word: word origin: a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms definition: either, or, than (2) The second word translated in the same sentence as AND is a completely different word in Greek than what was previously translated as OR in the KJV: original word: kaiv word origin: apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force definition: and, also, even, indeed, but.
So, Rebecca, let’s deal with this issue before we move on.
This is where we part. If you do not accept the word of God or question it, we cannot go any further. This is why the true church is at enmity with the whore. It is obvious the King James Bible honored God’s word and stayed true to the interpretation. You are using a corrupt bible. Hope you find the true word so that you can rightly divide the word of truth.
P.S. It’s a shame that for all those scriptures, all you could do is question God’s word. I’m still in shock that His word means so little to men. Nonetheless, God is witness to your disbelief in His word, and your lack of concern for truth.
Please prove to me that I am using a corrupt bible translation. I want proof. I presented to you, from a Protestant source no less, that the original Greek of that passage doesn’t agree with the KJV translation. And stop with the whore stuff…I have thick skin but Italian ancestry. Don’t tempt me to stoop to your low level of argument. Unless you seriously consider my arguments, you’re only deceiving yourself – Rebecca.
I guess that ends it. I don’t expect to hear back from Rebecca, but if she reads this, I hope and pray that she rejects the nonsense that she is putting forth as truth. Ultimately, unless you are a Catholic, to try and defend what you believe is “true” Christianity is fruitless and ends in utter despair. There is no foundation other than your own opinion and this is like building your house on sand. The house may stand for a short while, but in the end, it will always be destroyed, leaving you destitute. Certain arguments a non-Catholic may put forth may seem witty at first, but always end up having holes in them if given some deeper thought and study. If you are Protestant reader, please don’t get offended by what I say. I invite you also to look into the claims made by the Catholic Church. Read our Catechism with an open mind and heart. The statements made on this page are more so directed at Rebecca and those like her who seem to be in a distinct class among Protestants. The term anti-Catholic aptly applies to those such as her. Their bitterness and bias towards the Catholic Church has blinded them to the point of rejecting reason and truth altogether. Most Protestants don’t fit into this class. My prayer this and every day is that we may finally be one, of one heart and one mind. Those that have left the Catholic Church are a scandal in the eyes of the world.
The Catholic Legate
May 16, 2001