The following exchange features a discussion between Frank Jerry and "Jason", a member of a branch of Pentecostalism (Oneness). Frank met this fellow in a "Born Again" chat room on AOL. He got Frank's attention after stating, point blank, that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon. Frank's comments are bolded. His opponent's are in blue.
So why do you believe that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon and why do you hate it so much?
I don't HATE. I love. The Catholic Church has been founded on heresy started by the Romans. The Romans incorporated cultures into there own culture. The Romans incorporated Christianity into its Culture, but perverted it in the process
I'm not talking about the Romans, I'm talking about the Roman Catholic Church
Where do you think the "Roman" in Roman Catholic Church come from???
From the Protestant reformers, that's why for centuries, the Roman Catholic Church was just referred to as the "Catholic church" If you remember during our chat, you agreed that we are REQUIRED to live by EVERY word that comes forth from the mouth of God. Are we to live by EVERY WORD THAT COMES FORTH FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD?
According to Jesus yes...
Mt:4:4: But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God
You also acknowledged that you don't know and can't be sure of what specifically Jesus taught after He rose from the dead and spent 40 days with the Apostles. Tell me, what did Jesus teach specifically to the apostles for 40 days after he rose from the dead? (Acts1:3)
Acts 1:3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
What did he teach specifically for two days when he stayed with the Samaritans?
John 4:40-41: So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. And many more believed because of his own word;
Things pertaining
to the kingdom of god
SPECIFICALLY What things? His exact words aren't written down are they?
No
Then, you agreed that Jesus' words would never disappear. Did Jesus not say that Heaven and Earth would pass away but my words would never pass away?
Mt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Yes he did, because the word of god endureth forever.
You then agreed that these words of Jesus that WEREN'T recorded in the bible, must have been preserved by the Apostles and passed down to us. This is exactly what the Catholic Church defines as Sacred Tradition. Furthermore, you admitted that you didn't know exactly what Jesus taught for 40 days after he rose from the dead. So here is my question to you: where are these words preserved if they never passed away?
That's absurd.
Just answer the question or are you evading it?
They couldn't have passed away if the apostles received them and proclaimed them...
Precisely. This debate is now over. Now do you understand what the apostles meant when they said to hold fast to Tradition?
: )
And those apostles appointed men to take over their office when they died and this Sacred Tradition is the deposit of faith which is passed down to them.
Acts 1:20: For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
2 Tim 1:13-14: Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
...the Words of Jesus which weren't recorded in the Bible but which were passed on for us to believe through his Church
Jason, as I pointed out to you in our chat, the canon (limited list of books included in the bible) as we know it, is a Tradition which has been handed down to you. No where in the pages of Scripture, will you find Jesus or an Apostle, or anyone else for that matter, listing what books should be and shouldn't be included in the bible. You may have never thought about it, but study the issue now. The book of Revelations wasn't written until 60 years after the death of Christ. So for 60 years, all of the contents of the bible hadn't even been written yet. After the inspired author finished writing Revelations, a closed canon of the bible still needed to be defined. I've asked you what your reasons were for accepting the bible as you know it, and all of your answers have fell short. After all else failed, you finally gave the very subjective answer basing your knowledge of the canon of the bible on your own fallible opinions, your feelings, which I might add was condemned by Jesus Christ Himself.
Mt:15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the opinions of men.
The fact of the matter is that, as I said last night, the Catholic Church defined for us the canon of the bible at the Council of Carthage in 397A.D. This same Council listed the exact same books which we have in the NT.
But Tradition was also warned against traditions of men... Col 2:8
Exactly, the traditions of men, not the Traditions taught by Jesus and passed on through the apostles.
I see what your trying to say, but what the catholic church today believes and proclaims has come from man made doctrine and not Scripture.
Says who??? You have admitted that you don't know what Jesus specifically taught in many cases where He taught about the kingdom of God, a topic I'm sure you consider to be of the utmost importance. You've agreed that whatever He taught we are required to believe. You also agree that it still must be preserved for us somewhere other than in the pages of Scripture. Basically, you've accepted what Catholics refer to as Sacred Tradition. You've based your knowledge of the canon of the Bible on your feelings and opinions, something Jesus condemned if taught as doctrine. Could Jesus have taught about infant baptism during the 40 days after his ressurection or baptism by pouring instead of immersion, both of which you reject but also which you acknowledged that Scripture doesn't explicitly deny?
Frank Jerry
The Catholic Legate
March 3, 2004