I believe the quote in question was from the Council of Florence, not Unam Sanctam. The Council of Florence declared straight forwardly that no one outside of the Catholic Church, including Jews, heretics, and other infidels, can be saved.

Actually, I know that Unam Sanctam addresses the "Jews, heretics, and other infidels" quite specifically. I am not sure that Florence does. I will have to look it up.

The question at hand deals not with mortal sin, but with the necessity of baptism… indeed, it deals more with (but not entirely with) ORIGINAL sin, not mortal sin.

Actually, Baptism forgives ALL sins (original and actual: mortal and venial) and is the basis for the forgiveness of sins committed afterwards as well. You must be baptized to receive sacramental absolution.

The problem is that you assume heaven is every mans birthright, and that unless one commits some mortal sin to prevent the obtaining of the beatific vision, he will receive it.

I make no such assumption. You need to read what I wrote more carefully. The very best that the natural man can hope for is to end up in Hell. That is, on the very edge (or Limbus) of Hell. This is what has been called Limbo Patrorem (the Limbo of the Fathers) before the coming of Christ and the Limbo Puerorum (Limbo of the Children). No one has a right the Beatific Vision, but God has every right to give it to whomever He wants to. If someone does not meet the ordinary requirements for salvation (i.e., water baptism and formal participation in the life of the Catholic Church) that does not mean that they MAY not obtain the beatific vision by some type of informal inclusion in the Church. This is what the Magisterium has clearly taught since ancient times, but most clearly in the last 100 years.

This is not the issue. None of us deserve salvation…we are all unworthy! In order to even have a chance at obtaining the beatific vision, we must first belong to the Church…then if we die in the state of mortal sin, we will still end up in the eternal fire.

No argument here! Amen, brother!

Please study the Council of Florence and its declaration, and, for the sake of truth post your findings to your page in order to clear up any undue confusion caused by your adept evasion (whether conscious or not, I am not the judge) of the real issue here: the necessity of inclusion in the Church not because anything else is a mortal sin, but simply because it is, as has been continuously declared, necessary for salvation, REGARDLESS of culpability or error.

I don't know your particular affiliation, but I have done some debating with the Feeneyite crowd and the argument I put forward on the web page is directed towards their peculiar arguments. They allege that any adult who does not become a Catholic after achieving the age of reason is resisting the grace of the Holy Spirit, the prayers of Mary and the Saints, and the unambiguous evidence that the Catholic Church is the one true Church. As such, they allege that adult non-Catholics in our environment have no excuse and are guilty of the sins of irreligion. For this alone, the Feeneyites claim that they will be damned to Hell, (and not to Limbo)! They are alleging that these people are guilty of mortal sin. All I am saying in my articles is that SOME non-Catholics(baptized or not) MAY be truly ignorant of the truth or have some impediment to their will which prevents them from being held morally culpable for their state of material schism. As such they do not meet the Church's criteria for mortal sin and will not be held accountable for the serious sins of irreligion. For validly baptized non-Catholics, this means that they might be saved if they have acted in good faith on the basis of the grace that they have received. The Magisterium has also made it clear that SOME non-baptized individuals MAY attain the beatific vision purely by the grace of God by being joined to the Church in a less formal way. The Magisterium generally has in mind unbaptized catechumens or those wanting baptism but not able to obtain it before death. But Vatican II explicitly says that this grace can extend even to unbelievers in rare cases. This is all based upon the Church's mature understanding of the general salvific will of God. Please keep in mind that Catholic theology always takes account of both the ordinary and the extraordinary states of affairs in its theology. That is because God is gracious and not a strict martinet. God gives people a break; as many breaks as we need (though maybe not as many as we might want). He doesn't have to save anybody, but He wants to save everybody, so He has put aside sufficient grace for that task. The great tragedy is that many people don't take advantage of what he has to offer. Just because we know about the ordinary means of salvation, that doesn't exclude extraordinary means. Since every Pope since Pius IX has clearly affirmed this as has VCII, I stand with them in confidence that my friends and neighbors outside the Church are not necessarily lost.

With regards to my 'affiliation', I have none except Catholic. I have some acquaintances who could be classified as Feeneyites, but I myself have never cracked the cover of one of Fr. Feeney's works, partially for fear of being influenced by rhetorical skill etc.

That is a pity. Fr. Feeney was a marvelous writer. You've missed some very good (if occasionally bent) Catholic writing. As to the stuff on Extra Eccelsia Nulla Salus (EENS) by his disciples, I think you would be well advised to steer clear of them for the reasons you sited. I generally agree with Fr. Feeney that EENS is woefully neglected especially by American Catholics to our detriment and that of our non-Catholic neighbors. Unfortunately, Fr. Feeney decided to be more Catholic than the Pope and that is never a good idea.

I think that the Feeneyite position is inconsistent on that point. It is solemn Church teaching that no one goes to Hell proper for anything other than actual sins. Eternal torment is retributive as a punishment for unrepented serious sin. If anyone ends up in Hell (other than Limbo) they must be guilty of actual mortal sin. The Feeneyite crowd with there evasion of this issue have created their own alternative criteria for damnation that is not reflected in Scripture, Christian Tradition, or the Magisterium. If someone is damned to Hell proper (not Limbo), they MUST be guilty of mortal sin. In the case of non-Catholics, if they are to be damned for remaining outside the Church, it MUST be because they are guilty of one of the serious sins of irreligion: heresy, apostasy, or schism. There is no other alternative.

[Quotes from Florence and Trent] To summarize, even though it is quite clear: one must be a Catholic to be saved, one must have baptism to be saved, and that baptism must be accomplished with "real and natural water"…you see, I make no interpretive act here, I merely present the clear teachings of the Church...one cannot make out of them what they are not!

It appears that the quotation from Florence is very similar to the one from Unam Sanctam:

The Council clearly believed that water Baptism was the ordinary means of salvation, but it likewise recognized that in SOME cases the DESIRE for Baptism would suffice. Most likely the Fathers of Trent had the EXPLICIT desire for Baptism in mind. Later teaching of the Magisterium allow the possibility of an IMPLICIT desire being sufficient. From your quotation of Pope Pius IX, please note the following: God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thought and habits of all men, because of his great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin. This confirms the point I was making in my previous posting to you.

Firstly, let me call you attention to the fact that Pius says nowhere that those invincibly ignorant can be saved without entering into the Holy Roman Church! Nor does he say that without baptism they shall be saved, and thus he does not explicitly contradict the teachings of Florence or Trent. Read carefully, and you shall see that he states "by the operating power of divine light and grace" such souls may be saved. Since God shall not contradict his own law, and since he is bound by the dogma of the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18] it can only be that this operating power works WITHIN the framework of Church dogma, namely that defined at Florence and Trent (as well as Unam Sanctam, etc.).

I don't agree. The clear intention of Pope Pius IX is to indicate that those who are not formal members of the Catholic Church MAY still be saved "by the operating power of divine light and grace." If by that he means that they would eventually convert to the Catholic faith, this whole statement would have been futile and redundant. We already know that. His whole point is OBVIOUSLY that some people formally outside of the Church MAY be saved by God in an extraordinary way. The Magisterium has definitively stated that invincible ignorance MAY excuse those who are non-Catholics and that they may still attain eternal life. (See Lumen Gentium and Veritatis Splendor.) This is not a contradiction of previous teaching but a clarification in greater detail. In short, there is no doubt that Baptism and membership in the Catholic Church are ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation without exception. But the Magisterium in its mature reflection on this matter has indicated that an implicit desire to do the will of God MAY allow SOME persons at the time of their death to receive the grace of justification and be considered members of the Catholic Church in a way sufficient for them to gain the Beatific Vision.